6 players suspended, Williams Wall to file junction

[Saint33]

NFL suspends six players for four games each

ProFootballTalk.com - WILLIAMS WALL LAWSUIT COMING WEDNESDAY

Should be interesting to see how this all plays out. Goodell is getting ridiculous, and this league is becoming a dictatorship.

I really hope the junction will take long enough to keep the WW on the field for the rest of the season and playoffs.

[cubuffsman78]

I'm personally not terribly against the ruling. I'm not a fan of supplements and think athletes are becoming far too reliable upon them -- even at a high school level.

Athletes are now taught to take these things at an early age. I remember when I was in high school, my coaches were pimping off creatine. It was the hottest thing out 10 years ago. I declined. Good thing, too. Turned out creatine gave several users terrible kidney problems.

The problem with supplements is no one really understands what's going into these things. Even the company's who provide and invent these things have no clue what the long term effects of such concoctions can have.

I agree with the NFL's policy of "what you put into your body is your responsibility." I think all supplements should be banned. The world of physical fitness, even without the extra crap these guys put in their bodies, has advanced to an elite level. These players can be just as big and just as fast without those thrice-daily powders, pills and creams they're using.

[Saint33]

Originally Posted by cubuffsman78 I'm personally not terribly against the ruling. I'm not a fan of supplements and think athletes are becoming far too reliable upon them -- even at a high school level. Athletes are now taught to take these things at an early age. I remember when I was in high school, my coaches were pimping off creatine. It was the hottest thing out 10 years ago. I declined. Good thing, too. Turned out creatine gave several users terrible kidney problems. The problem with supplements is no one really understands what's going into these things. Even the company's who provide and invent these things have no clue what the long term effects of such concoctions can have. I agree with the NFL's policy of "what you put into your body is your responsibility." I think all supplements should be banned. The world of physical fitness, even without the extra crap these guys put in their bodies, has advanced to an elite level. These players can be just as big and just as fast without those thrice-daily powders, pills and creams they're using.

I agree with this completely.

However, these were diuretics, used to reach a certain weight that is mandatory to reach within their contract. The illegal substance was not included in the ingredients label, and although the league knew about it being included, they did nothing to sufficiently inform the players, organizations, or even their own drug hotline.

Frankly I believe the players are at fault to some obvious extent, when taking a supplement not included in the league's approved list, you're placing the responsibility on yourself.

However the players weren't given a fair chance to check what was in it. They did all the right things, and for all they knew, there was nothing wrong with taking Star Caps. They did not take this to gain an advantage, or for the use that this illegal drug is illegal for, to mask any steroids.

And when you add that, to the fact that the league clearly didn't do enough to inform anyone of Star Caps, some responsibility has to lay on the League. The fact that the league has shown no sympathy, or has taken any blame or responsibility for this is just plain wrong.

IMO they still deserve a suspension, however a reduced suspension, to make up for the unfairness that they were presented, and to put at least some responsibility on the League.

[Plugs22]

I agree with Cubuffs as well, The players are responsible for whats goes in their bodies, with the only exception in my mind would be if the "substance" in their body was prescribed by a doctor. If the substance is illegal, then its illegal. Whether the league informed them or not a certain product has illegal substance in it is irrelevant in my mind, the players know what substances are illegal, its not the league's responsibility to tell all the players where these illegal substances can be found in.

Look the fact that the players getting suspended here (specially the Williams boys) are very key players for their teams, thats to bad but the fact is they broke the rules of the league they play in and have to face the consequences. I am not accusing you of having the opinion you do just b/c your a Vikings fan b/c i don;t think that is and hope that is not the case. The substances that are illegal in the nfl are illegal for a reson and thats why the punishments that exist do exist. There are other ways to make weight other than taking diuretics.

[Saint33]

Originally Posted by Plugs22 I agree with Cubuffs as well, The players are responsible for whats goes in their bodies, with the only exception in my mind would be if the "substance" in their body was prescribed by a doctor. If the substance is illegal, then its illegal. Whether the league informed them or not a certain product has illegal substance in it is irrelevant in my mind, the players know what substances are illegal, its not the league's responsibility to tell all the players where these illegal substances can be found in. Look the fact that the players getting suspended here (specially the Williams boys) are very key players for their teams, thats to bad but the fact is they broke the rules of the league they play in and have to face the consequences. I am not accusing you of having the opinion you do just b/c your a Vikings fan b/c i don;t think that is and hope that is not the case. The substances that are illegal in the nfl are illegal for a reson and thats why the punishments that exist do exist. There are other ways to make weight other than taking diuretics.

Again I agree with this. The players could have avoided this, and that is why I believe they still deserve a suspension.

However it's not just about the drug they took. That is a very small factor, and only to prove the intent of using the drug was not in a negative manor.

But, the NFL IS responsible to give the players all the information they have on supplements to allow them to make the right decisions. NFL doctors knew about Star Caps containing something illegal, but failed to even tell their own hotline. The Williams' (and the others involved) all used the hotline to check if the product was ok. The hotline was unaware of the information that NFL doctors knew, and they approved the product to the players. When you add the fact that the ingredient was not included on the label, you can understand why the players felt it was safe to use.

The hotline not being informed of Star Caps is the main reason why this is unfair, the league in a sense told them to take it, and are now suspending them for it.

BTW the case is being sent to a federal court now, and the suspensions have been temporarily lifted. A legal source at the court date said the judge involved in this case is very upset with the NFL, and the legal source believes it could last weeks even months.

[Saint33]

Tuesday Morning Offensive Tackle

The Previous Play Will Be Reviewed It's official. Minnesota Vikings' players Pat and Kevin Williams have thrown the red-challenge flag and filed an injunction against the NFL, regarding the recently distributed suspensions that Kevin and Pat, as well as four other players, received. As the majority of the public knows at this point, these players were suspended from the NFL for four games, for the use of a diuretic (a drug that is used to decrease the amount of water in one's body), StarCaps. The NFL's steroid policy is simple: the players are responsible for what is in their own bodies. The players tested positive for a banned substance, and therefore should be punished as such. The players, however, are not the only perpetrators in this case. The Collective Bargaining Agreement, a 300+ page document stating the policies and rules of the NFL (agreed upon by the league owners and the NFL Players Association), states very clearly where the responsibility lies with each party: "The parties agree that substance abuse and the use of anabolic steroids are unacceptable in the NFL, and that it is the responsibilities of both parties to deter and detect substance abuse and steroid use and to offer programs of intervention, rehabilitation, and support to players who have substance abuse problems." - Page 198, Article XLIV, Section 6 Therefore, it is the responsibility of both parties, being the NFL and the NFLPA, to not only acknowledge the use of anabolic steroids and substance abuse (detect), but to also prevent the use of these substances in order to protect the players (deter). According to recent information, there is clear evidence that the NFL did not deter this instance from occurring, and furthermore, encouraged the players to use this banned product. The NFL reviewed the StarCaps drug in 2006, and determined that because it included the banned prescription drug, Bumetanide, that StarCaps would be added to the banned supplements list. The league then proceeded to send out a written notice to NFL General Managers, Owners, and the head trainers of each NFL team. Normally, the action that would follow this one would be to place the drug on the banned supplements' list. This provides a future reference for the players if they would like to know whether or not the drug is league-approved. This crucial step was left out, however, and the banned supplements' list remained the same. The question is then asked, did the NFL deter this instance from happening? Roger Goodell deterred this about as well as "pulling out" deters pregnancy. Maybe he'd rather discuss that issue with Bristol Palin. According to Jamie Dukes, a writer for NFL.com, one of the players involved in this case, Deuce McAllister (a running back for the New Orleans Saints), followed NFL procedure by the book, and still was unkowing to the fact that StarCaps had been added to the NFL's banned supplements' list. "McAllister followed procedure by taking the Starcaps product to the trainers, who in turn called the NFL hotline, which stated that the listed ingredients on the bottle were not on the banned list. Of course, by only reading the product’s label, the hotline did exactly what players do." Add this knowledge to the fact that this is the one of the largest waves of positive tests for a specific drug in a one-year span in NFL history, and one begins to see the correlation between the players testing positive, and the banned supplements' list remaining un-updated. Don't worry, the story is about to get juicier. ESPN reports that Peter Ginsberg, the legal representative for Kevin and Pat Williams, claims that the notices that the NFL had sent out did not warn players about the drug's recent banning, but instead was sent out for commercial uses: ""What the [NFL] did, in fact, was issue that notification for commercial purposes, telling players not to endorse the manufacturer of StarCaps," Ginsberg told ESPN. "There was absolutely no warning about a undisclosed banned ingredient. [The notice] was purely for commercial reasons and without regard for the health, welfare and safety of the player. For Adolpho Birch or anyone associated with the NFL to suggest there was a specific warning [on StarCaps] is disingenuous and disappointing. "Mr. Birch, in fact, personally informed the FDA that scientific studies showed that [StarCaps] contained Bumetanide. One of the scientists wanted to make that disclosure but Mr. Birch and Dr. Lombardo made the decision to suppress that information two years ago. They purposely kept information from players, all while claiming they have a policy for the health and safety of the players as well as the integrity of the league. The NFL violated its own integrity and subjected players to serious medical risks by their actions."" Whether this information is true, or if it is simply lawyer-talk remains to be seen. As of right now, this information is only food for thought. What the case comes down to is this: both parties have a duty to deter this from happening via the Collective Bargaining Agreement. If the NFL is not doing everything in its power to prevent the use of steroids, then it is not fulfilling his obligation to the CBA. Furthermore, by not continuing the deterrents set in place by the league for these events (updating the banned/approved lists), it is in-turn encouraging the players to use these supplements, as seen by the before-mentioned evidence regarding Deuce McAllister. Because the NFL has violated the Collective Barganning Agreement by not deterring this instance, as have the players by not detecting the banned substance, the solution should be similar to that of the Steve Hutchinson scenario that took place in 2005; both sides should be absolved of their crimes, and instead the CBA, as well as the banned/approved suppliments' list, should be modified to prevent these occurrances in the future. Roger Goodell, if the intent of the rule is to protect the players, then why did you insist on leaving the suppliment off of the list? There is only one outcome that can come due to that decision, and that is the one that we are dealing with at this moment.

here's very good explanation of what I'm trying to say